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Из-Под Глыб - re: hiring a software engineer

Jun. 18th, 2009

12:29 pm - re: hiring a software engineer

As I understand, most of the people that are nominally holding positions of software engineers cannot and do not write code. Or if they do, from time to time, it's just pathetic. So they gather requirements, study or write documents and plans, check performance, run application to see if this menu item is located right below that menu item, etc.

Now there's a moment when you need to hire someone. And you do not want to hire one more parasite, you need someone who can, and will write code. Software is code, fyi. If it runs, it's the code that runs, not sprint plans, not feature lists. It's code. So, to produce software, you have to write it.

So, you interview an engineer. A nice guy, but clueless regarding writing code. And you say so.

And then James, or Jack, or George, desperate to find anybody at all, asks you, okay, but maybe this guy can do some porting, or adaptation, or integration, or something like that, and be useful? Maybe. But most probably he'll be a) a burden, and b) an immediate threat to you, mister micromanager. He'll want your place. And what you'll have to do is create another micromanager position, eventually to be taken by this guy you thought was cool, kind of.

So, my suggestion is, only those people should be hired who are willing to write code, enjoy it, and know how to do it. Even if they are not very good at certain aspects of writing code; if they like it, they'll learn it.

(Well, I wonder if there's enough people willing to learn and write good code in this world... not sure about it.)

(Leave a comment)

Comments:

From:	chief_1
Date:	June 18th, 2009 07:44 pm (UTC)

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Yeah, only people like you should be hired. Or like me.

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 18th, 2009 07:54 pm (UTC)

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You don't believe there are many people willing to write code just for fun? Look at all the free software around us.

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From:	chief_1
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:08 pm (UTC)

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I was just kidding. Plus, I used to results of some studies which were claiming that people tend to hire people who are like them.

There are people who write code just for fun. Companies like McAfee or Symantec would be earning lot less if there were no such people.

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From:	chief_1
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:24 pm (UTC)

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I mean, I used to read the results.

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From:	obligateaerobe
Date:	June 18th, 2009 07:46 pm (UTC)

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I wonder how non-code writing software engineers actually get to f2f interview stage. Don't most places have a code test? Or do people cheat on those?

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 18th, 2009 07:55 pm (UTC)

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They talk. It's a theory for them. Say, you are a literary critic; and they are hiring a writer. "Tell me about the archetypal novel structure", "what would you avoid when writing a dialog between two elderly women on a cruise boat?"

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From:	spamsink
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:43 pm (UTC)

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That's a good one!

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From:	nowherenoone
Date:	June 18th, 2009 07:55 pm (UTC)

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I'm a strange freak sometimes - just sitting and writing code alone in the bunker and, please, nobody touch me >:|

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From:	cema
Date:	June 18th, 2009 07:59 pm (UTC)

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Only those people should be hired who are willing to enjoy it. Well said.

I wonder if there's enough people willing to learn and write good code in this world

Enough for the company you work in. Right?

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:01 pm (UTC)

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Judging by the results, yes.

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From:	cema
Date:	June 18th, 2009 09:08 pm (UTC)

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Well, good then! Nothing to complain about.

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From:	sab123
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:21 pm (UTC)

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Porting or adaptation or integration also require writing code. Even more difficult, they require reading and understanding code.

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From:	itman
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:38 pm (UTC)

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They require 90-99% of reading and 1-10% of writing.

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From:	irene221b
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:30 pm (UTC)

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Willing and loving is not enough. I work with a guy who LOVES writing code. Oh, he'll happily write tons and tons of code for you. It's fucking death by fucking patterns, that's what it is. Page after page after page of FactoryHelper this and ParameterValidator that.

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From:	itman
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:40 pm (UTC)

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Is he writing only beautifiers or also the code that process data?

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From:	irene221b
Date:	June 18th, 2009 10:40 pm (UTC)

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He calls that "infrastructure" and that's what he likes to write.

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From:	itman
Date:	June 18th, 2009 10:43 pm (UTC)

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I think he'll enjoy this paper. :-)

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From:	irene221b
Date:	June 18th, 2009 10:51 pm (UTC)

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Thanks, I definitely did.

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From:	itman
Date:	June 18th, 2009 10:54 pm (UTC)

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:-)

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 18th, 2009 11:44 pm (UTC)

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Josh is a great guy. I think I've learned a lot from him. In particular, doing tdd. He's a great teacher too. And everyone should read his black book.

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From:	gabaidulin
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:57 pm (UTC)

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So, you hate people that write *pretty structured* OOP code ? -:)

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 18th, 2009 09:07 pm (UTC)

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See, class names SHOULD NOT consist of implementation details. I mean, ParameterValidator is okay, but "FactoryHelper" does not make sense unless we are developing a class that represents a special kind of government entity helping local factories to stay afloat in these difficult times.

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From:	irene221b
Date:	June 18th, 2009 10:42 pm (UTC)

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I hate "future proofing". Make it simple to read and refactor later, *if* needed. Don't waste time trying to anticipate possible future requirements and build a huge infrastructure in advance to accomodate them.

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From:	gabaidulin
Date:	June 19th, 2009 09:19 am (UTC)

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Ok, I fully agree with KISS principle.

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From:	spamsink
Date:	June 18th, 2009 08:48 pm (UTC)

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I think Dali was much more succinct: "Painter, paint!"

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 18th, 2009 09:08 pm (UTC)

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Wow. He put it in two words. He was a genius. A homological algebraist of contemporary art, that's what he was.

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From:	cema
Date:	June 18th, 2009 09:10 pm (UTC)

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painter.Paint()

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From:	cema
Date:	June 18th, 2009 09:09 pm (UTC)

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У Флигенко это было так: "Тки, ткачиха! Шей, швея! Вот концепция моя."

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From:	loveyoupeople
Date:	June 18th, 2009 10:26 pm (UTC)

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может, и бывают паразиты ))
я тут поработала тестером и поняла

(
что увлеченный фаном кодировщик
не в состоянии оценить, насколько удобно, красиво и разумно выглядит результат, и есть ли он вообще;
не может придумать, как что должно работать с точки зрения пользователя;
и чаще всего кричит: а ты скажи мне как надо! (а я уж запрограммирую)

и еще: они почему-то всегда первым делом фиксят те баги, которые я пометила low priority
)

что правильный менеджер стоит десяти кодировщиков
но, Вы правы, те кто ничего не может - лезут в менеджеры и пишут, и пишут списки фич, аж жуть берет

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From:	gabaidulin
Date:	June 19th, 2009 09:15 am (UTC)

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За UI должен отвечать другой специалист, не программист.

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From:	hill_report
Date:	June 18th, 2009 10:58 pm (UTC)

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Какбе потому что за производство кода платят столько что не хватит на чОрный жЫп (tm) Вон полная Индия кодировщиков, бери сколь нужно.

Программирование сейчас на стадии когда развивалось машиностроение не знаю, на каждый станок нужен токарь, он точит деталь. А сейчас один человек на целый автозавод. Вкалывают роботы...(с)

Либо дело в том что программы изначально штучный продукт, типа как вчера точили круглые болты с резьбой, а сегодня квадратные. Все предыдущие станки на мусорку так что даже автоматическая генерация кода не поможет.

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 19th, 2009 12:38 am (UTC)

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Что за проблема купить чорный жып? Кстати, нафиг черный, на него пыли много садится. Лучше красный, чтоб девушки издалека замечали. Самый дорогой 46к, самый дешевый 18к.
kbb

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From:	buldozr
Date:	June 19th, 2009 10:53 am (UTC)

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Вон полная Индия кодировщиков, бери сколь нужно.

Индия полна людей, которые в силу местной культуры подготовки (а может быть, и всего образования) были убеждены, что написание кода это smart career choice для них, нужно только ни за что не признаваться, если ты чего-то не знаешь или не умеешь. Самое печальное, многих менеджеров в местах, где с этим дела обстоят вроде бы более здраво, удалось убедить, что такие люди есть smart hiring choice, благо это позволяет снизить расходы на разработку. В краткосрочной перспективе, то есть.

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From:	faceless_lady
Date:	June 18th, 2009 11:39 pm (UTC)

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Зря Вы так на всех инженеров наехали.
Хочу и могу писать код...и работаюший, и красивый.
Увы, сидя на саппорте, много не попишешь - в основном чужие ошибки исправляешь, причем примитивные и грубые.
А то и вовсе в базах роешься, в поиске ошибок, коим нет числа.
Наверное, от этого со временем можно отупеть.

Нет, работу я не ищу...и тут пока кормят нормально.
Но за software engineers обидно.

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 18th, 2009 11:46 pm (UTC)

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Я, по-моему, как раз за инженеров. Просто этих инженеров надо ещё увидеть среди толп болтунов. В СССР я думал, ага, пятеро работают, пятьдесят глядят разинув рот. Думал, это советское явление. Теперь полагаю, что это общечеловеческое.

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From:	mikaza
Date:	June 19th, 2009 09:49 am (UTC)

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http://www.artlebedev.ru/kovodstvo/sections/153/

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From:	buldozr
Date:	June 19th, 2009 10:43 am (UTC)

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Неправильно нарисовали пирамиду: она должна быть перевернутой.

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From:	mikaza
Date:	June 19th, 2009 08:49 pm (UTC)

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Это просто Лебедев себя похвалил :)

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From:	buddha239
Date:	June 19th, 2009 02:16 pm (UTC)

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Именно общечеловеческое!:) Еще, возможно, время такое.:)

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From:	buddha239
Date:	June 19th, 2009 02:15 pm (UTC)

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Когда студентам тройки ставишь - похожие проблемы; правда, нет опасности что они кого- подсидят.:)

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From:	yosefk
Date:	June 19th, 2009 04:00 pm (UTC)

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Never seen anybody who was nominally a "software engineer" and didn't write code, only those who were nominally "managers". Seen developers who couldn't, but they all did.

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 19th, 2009 05:32 pm (UTC)

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Oh, there are two of them sitting three meters away from me. They go to meetings, they exchange notes and schedules, they ask the sacramental question ("are we there yet"), and confess that never saw the code (but are always ready to give an advice on how to implement or integrate this or that).

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From:	yosefk
Date:	June 19th, 2009 07:20 pm (UTC)

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Unless they're known for past heroic achievements or something, I wonder how they avoid the problem of employment termination.

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 19th, 2009 08:13 pm (UTC)

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Easy. They start "coordinating" other people's work. Looking through features, what's done, what not. And who's gonna kick them out? It takes some kind of guts, no?

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From:	yosefk
Date:	June 19th, 2009 10:18 pm (UTC)

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I think it takes guts if they do produce some output, bad enough for other people to fear to take over its maintenance. If the guy produces nothing, he can be fired at no cost, so I've only seen problems with net negative producers; zero productivity was the prerogative of managers (whom more powerful managers would nurture to form coalitions in managerial fights, as well as for getting their asses kissed.)

I guess the garbage accumulating in an organization varies enough with its structure to require lots of experience to see all the kinds.

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From:	ionial
Date:	June 19th, 2009 09:24 pm (UTC)

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Присоединяюсь к предыдущему оратору yosefk.
Как и в том, что подобных иженеров не видел, так и в том, что видел таких, что пишут и пишут, но лучше бы не писали.
А эти ваши соседи - у них такая должность или это особое умение отлынивать от работы?

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From:	ivan_ghandhi
Date:	June 20th, 2009 04:18 am (UTC)

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Я не знаю; их на это бросили.

Я что, жалуюсь, что ли? Наоборот: есть кому ячеечки заполнять в табличках и напоминать, что где и когда. Я их только науськиваю.

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From:	chrobin
Date:	June 20th, 2009 03:56 am (UTC)

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i'm one of them :(

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From:	chrobin
Date:	June 20th, 2009 03:57 am (UTC)

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> Software is code, fyi.
sure. it does not start with code and does not end with it, though.

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